Fiona (00:09)
Welcome to UnDUBBED the podcast that's unscripted, uncensored, and undeniably data. I'm Fiona.
Sarah (00:16)
I'm Sarah and today we're continuing our What Makes a Great series. And this time we're diving in to workshops. Over the past few months we've been running quite a few workshops for clients and honestly it's reminded us just how much goes into creating a great workshop that actually delivers value rather than just ticking a meeting box.
Fiona (00:39)
Right? So whether you're facilitating requirements, gathering sessions, running design thinking workshops or leading strategic planning sessions, there are some key elements that separate great workshops from the mediocre ones.
And we've learned a lot of these lessons the hard way over our careers.
Sarah (00:57)
We're going to talk about everything from preparation and structure to facilitation techniques and follow through. Because a great workshop isn't just about what happens in the room. It's about what happens before, during, and crucially after the workshop.
Fiona (01:15)
So there's just one request before we dive in. And as always, it's me. Please, please, please remember to like and subscribe to our podcast, whether that's on YouTube, Spotify or Apple. Most importantly, please remember to share this episode with anyone who runs workshops or wants to improve how their team collaborates and makes decisions together.
Sarah (01:44)
Okay, let's dive straight in there, Fi What actually makes a great versus just an adequate workshop? What separates workshops that people remember and act on from ones that are forgotten quickly?
Fiona (02:02)
gee, I'm putting my participant hat on, I think a little bit, rather than my facilitator hat on. So what makes a workshop great versus just adequate comes back to a bit of a feeling for me. So if a workshop feels like we got shit done,
If it feels like I had fun doing it, and if it feels like there were great connections made during the workshop, whether that's mental connections and those aha moments, or the moments of connecting with people, those are the things that really make a difference in our daily work, you know, so that we can understand
direction that we're taking or synthesize the diverse thoughts that people have into making something better. So for me, it's all about bringing people together, but having that feeling afterwards, we've actually got something done and that we're taking action from it. And it's not just something that we're participating in and then get shelved later on.
Sarah (03:26)
I think it's really important that it becomes like this living and breathing document after the workshop and hopefully it was a little bit before as well. And I think I really, well I do really like some of the things you've leaned into there, particularly talking about the energy that's in the room. I think we've all been in workshops where it's felt really flat and maybe just one person's dominated and I enjoy workshops where they take a few twists and
and you can feel that we're actually getting something out of it that we may not have thought of at the beginning.
Fiona (04:02)
Yeah, 100%.
I'm just pausing there because I'm thinking times at which someone has dominated the conversation or hasn't participated, you know, and sometimes workshops can be really tough. So they can be really emotive and there's a lot going on and you're working through some heavy, heavy things. And if someone's not listening or not willing to...
step in and try and really understand what other people are talking about, it really, really falls dead quite quickly.
Sarah (04:46)
Yeah, and I think it's, you know, it's up to the facilitator, I feel in some of these circumstances to understand maybe some of the politics that could come into play and to how to navigate those as well and give everyone a voice.
Fiona (05:05)
Absolutely. I mean, I think it's easy to remember the really good workshops and also the really bad workshops. But what about those bland kind of workshops in the middle? So those are ones that I would say are more quickly forgotten because I've got some that I'm carrying that were really bad workshops. ⁓ But certainly the ones that are just lukewarm, where you feel like you're grinding.
through the day would probably be the best way to describe it. I really love a workshop where I'm kept on my toes and I'm constantly moving to the next thing in the meeting. It keeps me engaged. But having things that aren't on a timetable or perhaps someone's waffling a bit, it's easy for those to be shelved and forgotten. How about you? What do you think separates it?
Sarah (05:57)
Mm.
Yeah, I think a lot of it is around that energy. And I think when you talk about the lukewarm ones, it can be hard when it's a really dull topic, or there's a preconceived outcome. So I think a lot is really around setting the scene and potentially getting more buy-in and allowing a workshop to maybe
derail sometimes and really go down that rabbit hole that will provide a better outcome. And I think if it's just there to tick boxes, then that's where you get the really lukewarm ones. When it's come in to solve a problem that people have bought into and they're prepared to go wide,
to really dig in on what that problem is and for people to feel safe and confident talking in those workshops. That's when you can spin a lukewarm one into something that is actually interesting, engaging, and can have some great outcomes.
Fiona (07:10)
Yes, spot on. when someone says to you, Sarah, let's schedule a workshop, what should they be hoping to achieve? I mean, what do you think the purpose is of bringing people together?
Sarah (07:23)
Yeah, so when you're scheduling a workshop, you've got a lot of cost, right? You may have 10, 20 people potentially together for half a day, couple of hours. If you kind of work that out on just on a salary cost, that's a lot of money sitting in that room. And...
I think the people that are coming into that room want to see the value out of that workshop. They want to know, we're coming in to solve this problem and this is where we're hoping to get to by the end of the workshop. So I think it's setting those expectations and having the interest in what we're trying to solve. If it's something boring and precanned and we all know that they're just going to follow what leadership are going to say anyway, I think that's not engaging or exciting for others to
entertain. So I think it's really about making sure that it's a top topic for the organisation and that people that are investing their time are actually going to see their value as inputs.
Fiona (08:33)
That's crucial. You know, we all have anyone that you speak to, they'll be like, how are you? I'm busy. I'm so busy at the moment. I'm trying to get, you know, so much done. And what you spoke about there with the respect as well, the respect of people's time, you know, making sure that you're not baking in a whole lot of unnecessary steps.
making sure that they're going to get something out of the workshop but also that they have something to give to the workshop as well so they're not just a passenger. There's no point in taking passengers into a workshop. Everybody should be there for a purpose and be willing and able to contribute.
Sarah (09:24)
And I like how you talked about purpose. But one thing I want to say is they need to sometimes step out of their own role and what their purpose would be outside of that workshop. I think that's super important. They're coming together to solve a problem, but we want them to look at it from all different angles and not necessarily from their own seat in the organisation.
Fiona (09:50)
And how do you pull people into that then? What's your secret tricks?
Sarah (09:53)
Well, I think it's a lot around setting the scene. So talking about the day and even black and white blatantly saying it, right? Today, you're not the accountant or the legal arm. You're here to solve this problem. And sometimes it can be even almost taking it back to a bit of a fantasy. It's like this is a problem outside of our organisation. How would we solve it from the outside? And it's setting those scenes to give people that technique that just gets them out of their daily
grind of, this is how this problem's affecting me and me only, to thinking wider and this is how it's affecting our customers potentially.
Fiona (10:33)
Yeah, I think in larger organisations, particularly where there's a strong bonus culture, that can be really difficult to break down the what's in it for me. So if people are working hard, they're working long hours, they're trying to achieve their KPIs. And those KPIs can sometimes be a little misaligned, particularly when you're pulling in people from different departments. ⁓
making sure that everyone understands the why they are there is super important. The fact that you've invited them into the room because you feel that they have something to contribute to solving the problem like you say.
they need to leave the core purpose that they're at the organisation at the door for the purpose of the workshop to help to resolve any challenges or even just build culture.
Sarah (11:25)
And that is culture is a massive part of people showing up to workshops with the right mindset as well. So I also feel a lot of background into running great workshops is having that senior buy-in as well. know, maybe the highest paid person in the room takes a couple of minutes at the beginning of the workshop and really talks about the importance of this.
particular workshop and why we all need to step out of our comfort zone today.
Fiona (11:59)
Yeah, I love it. The hippos made an appearance. We haven't had the hippo appear for a while. ⁓ But they certainly do have purpose and change management very important in setting the tone.
Sarah (12:05)
No, we have not.
Yeah. And so, V, what's the most common mistake you see when people plan workshops?
Fiona (12:21)
Okay.
shoving too much into the agenda. ⁓
Sarah (12:29)
I'm definitely
one of those people. I like to get as much done as possible.
Fiona (12:35)
me too and it's also the fact that I like to keep people's attention. I find that if you keep people's people on their toes and have quite a strict adherence to timeframes, you can really frame things up and make sure that you're getting through. But I think that it's also important to be flexible enough with that timeline to know that you might de-scope a couple of items.
on the agenda if the conversation is going deeper and into an area where people are starting to work through perhaps some of the challenges. Other mistakes that I see are not being clear on really what you're trying to solve. So coming up with an agenda.
trying to be smart around how you think you might get through things, but not being really clear with the attendees. This is the direction that we're heading into. So a lot of communication that needs to go on before the meeting, getting people prepped, ready for the day, making sure that they're not on their laptops, doing other things.
⁓ Making sure that when you're bringing people together that might be strangers or not well known to each other, there's enough time to let the room become comfortable with starting to share some of those ideas. But yes, so that's probably getting into a little bit more of what happens during the workshop. But in terms of planning, really not thinking about what are you trying to solve and trying to shove too much into it.
Sarah (14:06)
and really understanding the why of that this workshop is being run. I tend to agree. One other thing that I've definitely been guilty of and that's running it too rigid. So having a plan that's very detailed and wanting to stick to that detail by the minute, right? I've got five minutes for this and 10 minutes for this. And I think it's allowing and understanding as a facilitator that this may get completely derailed.
And that's okay, as long as we feel we're on course for getting to a better understanding of the why in solving.
Fiona (14:45)
Hmm.
I'm just thinking back to of the workshops that I facilitated and coming back to that planning a little bit, I think sometimes I may have over engineered how the workshop was going to be run. And it may have been better to stop using the frameworks that I prepared and just.
give them a good hard listening to, know, and really sit because they've started to talk. It's not in the same flow that we've prepared, but they're starting to talk, which is really where we get the benefit out of understanding the challenges and also the things that need to be solved or that are the most important to solve.
Sarah (15:30)
Mm-mm. And I think as well, again, over planning, I would have 12 different human-centered design methodologies on the whiteboard or however I was delivering. And now I kind of have them in my back pocket. So it's like, if I get not enough engagement here, I know to maybe lean on some of these methodologies. If I get too much...
I know I need to do something else, another methodology to go narrow again. So I think it's all in just practicing and understanding and letting the room breathe and working with their energy and flow.
Fiona (16:11)
So on that note, Sarah why don't you walk us through pre-workshop discovery? What should you really be trying to learn before you even design that workshop agenda?
Sarah (16:22)
Yeah, so I think some key things are is understanding what we're trying to solve. What is the key business problem? And I think it's good to talk to different people at different levels that may not even be attending the workshop, but just really trying to understand, is this really the problem? And voicing that out to a few different people because they may see that it's not quite.
the problem. So I think it's very important to understand what some of these key needs are, what we're trying to solve for. The other piece I would say is looking at some of the technical things. You know, are we going to be all in a room together?
Are we going to be on devices in the room together? Is it going to be virtual? Is it going to be that dreaded mix of people being virtual and people being in the room? That's always a tricky one, right? And then I think it's understanding how much time do we have of people? And if we send some pre-read, are they going to be good with that? Is that going to be absorbed or is that going to be ignored? Or ignored?
Fiona (17:29)
that. Absorbed or ignored.
Sarah (17:33)
And I've been on both sides.
And understanding the culture. Is this a culture where everyone feels comfortable to openly talk at all different levels of the organisation? Or are people going to be looking to one person to talk before they agree with that person? They're hippo.
Fiona (17:51)
They hippo?
I think there's some great advice in there as well. One other thing that I would say pre workshop, if you are doing it in person.
Go and walk the room. Go and walk the room that you're going to be facilitating in. Understand the size, understand how close or how much space people will have between them because sometimes that can feel a little bit suffocating, especially if it's for a long period of time. But you can get the gist of.
you know, am I going to be able to put butchers paper up on the wall or, you know, and use post-it notes and get quite kinesthetic with some of the things that we're doing and get people up and moving. Obviously there's other things that you can do with different tools, but I feel that walking the room is really important. And if you can't get there, get someone to just take you on a WhatsApp video or FaceTime, take you through, understand, you know, that general set up.
So you're not arriving the morning of the workshop and frantically saying, ⁓ this isn't gonna work because it's too tight together or there's not a great screen for me to present on. It's really, really important to understand what you have to work with before the day because it will save a lot of stress.
Sarah (19:13)
Yeah, and bring sugar. Don't forget to bring sugar if you're doing it in person one. Bring sugar and all your Post-it notes and your whiteboard markers and all those kind of things as well, but definitely sugar.
Fiona (19:16)
For sure. Yes.
Actually, do you know what? I think that's a Kiwi and an Aussie thing. So all of the workshops that I've been to around the world, it's always the Kiwis and the Aussies that turn up with Bikkies and sugar and lollies, like starburst lolly, like chewy things. And you're just munching on them the whole way through and just trying to keep that attention.
Sarah (19:49)
Yeah, you're probably right actually. I have turned up to some workshops and it's like where's the sugar?
Fiona (19:55)
you
Sarah (19:59)
So we touched a little bit on pre-work.
Fiona (20:02)
Your favourite
Sarah (20:04)
My favourite Yeah, absorb or ignore. What makes a good pre-workshop questionnaire versus one that's just gonna create busy work for participants?
Fiona (20:05)
absorb or ignore.
Mm.
I'm so glad I got that question, because it's part of my favourite prep is the pre-workshop questionnaire. And the reason why it's so important to me is I'm generally bringing a lot of people together that I haven't met before, or I don't know so well, and the participants don't know each other well. I've got theories in my head about around what's actually happening from the conversations that I've had with whomever is sponsoring the workshop.
But it doesn't really mean that that's actually what's happening. And the pre-work question, pre-workshop questionnaire really helps me to make sure that my agenda is going to help to...
flesh out exactly what's happening but it gives me a bit of insight that's not just crystal ball insight it's actually what people are saying and I find that people always love to hear ⁓ what it is that they've been saying as well so I always play back a lot of the information that comes through in that questionnaire so that it starts to bring people together and the things that they agree on and the things that they disagree on.
So it really helps me to ground the workshop and knowledge of the participants rather than just some conjecture that's coming through. And you mentioned before, are we going to be able to wrangle them to do it? Well, I love to bring in a bit of gamification and start to get people competing against each other, especially when there's different teams that are coming through, measuring the number of participants that are responding by team.
and really sending out emails every day like, oh, you know, the engineering team is coming ahead and they've got 90%, but meanwhile, the visualisation team are at 30%. Come on guys, you can do it. You know, really getting behind it. And it's a little bit of that, peer pressure to drive everyone along. But I think that people start to get a feeling as well for how the workshops are going to be run. Bit of fun, bit of data.
Sarah (22:21)
Mmm.
Yeah, and I really like the gamification of it because it does start to spark people's interest and think, ⁓ we're doing really well in this. The other piece that I like about the questionnaire is you can be quite long in it, right? You could ask 50 questions, but you could canvas it with, you're probably not gonna know the answer to all these questions, but give it your best shot, you know? And I see some people that go deep.
in some questions and a very light on others. So you get a really good feeling early on of who's gonna know the technical stuff and who's more on the business side of things and all that side of stuff. So you can almost mini profile who your workshop attendees are going to be. And you can consider that as well when you're having breakout sessions to make sure that you're getting a mix of people or a mix of opinions.
Fiona (23:20)
Mm-mm-mm. Gee, 50 questions. You're a hard taskmaster. I don't know that I would do your pre-work. I'd probably sit and pull the team down.
Sarah (23:30)
I'm
just thinking back to a questionnaire I've recently seen come across our desks that you may have put together. Yeah, I think so.
Fiona (23:39)
Anyway... ⁓
Sarah (23:42)
Moving along.
Fiona (23:44)
Yes, I do recall that, that was like, I did warn them that they would need a certain amount of time to go and do that as well. It's actually a really good point as well. I wasn't thinking in that kind of context, but you're right. Sarah's referring to some requirements gathering that we were doing and we had a few different attendees. was very small workshop and few different attendees and we
were told that there were a limited number of things that they needed, but we felt that that's never been the case before. So why don't we just give them carte blanche that they can go pretty loose with and they did. ⁓ And they had different ideas as well. So we keep them apart and then we bring them together. So really interesting, but you're right. It does depend on the topic as to how deep we get. What's a question that you love to put into your questionnaires?
Sarah (24:41)
⁓ I gotta be a bit controversial here and this could almost derail the whole workshop itself, but do you think we're solving the right problem?
Fiona (24:52)
that's a great question. That's a really great, and you put that in pre-work or during the workshop itself.
Sarah (25:01)
Well, I may put it in both depending on the results that have come out. But I think if I put it in the pre-work and I got enough bite, I would be looking at reframing the workshop.
Fiona (25:05)
Mm.
Mm-hmm. I think it's a great question and something that anyone should put in. Do you tend to have your pre-work questionnaires as ⁓ anonymous or people are putting their name on it?
Sarah (25:27)
Yeah, I think it depends on the workshop and probably even the question. If I'm asking them to be quite controversial, I may say that this is anonymous. But then I may also just say at the beginning of the questionnaire that the whole thing is anonymous, but you're obviously welcome in the workshop to highlight pieces that you've spoken about.
Fiona (25:31)
Yeah.
tend to find that people cut loose and not in a good way when things are anonymous. And if you really feel that strongly about something, you should be able to put your name to it. But that's just my personal preference. Because I believe that we should all be professional in the way that we handle things, whether that's a pre-work questionnaire or it's doing 360 feedback for someone, or even the good old,
engagement thing. My personal belief is if you're unhappy, either go and work on the change or get out. It's not for mum or dad to go and solve for you or your leadership team. It's for you to get involved with. And then if you can't or...
it's not working or you don't like what you're seeing, move on.
Sarah (26:42)
Hmm, agree. We could go down a whole other rabbit hole on that one, but I'm gonna pull us back out.
Fiona (26:49)
Okay, but I do have one question that I do want to share, which is my favourite question for a pre-workshop questionnaire. it's one where I ask people what their comfort level is with data. Like how comfortable are you with using data to inform your decisions? And it's a scale of one to 10. So it's a really easy question ⁓ or, you know,
What is your level of data expertise is another way to frame that up. And I give examples of, you know, I can use Excel or I can understand a chart. And I've interestingly found a lot of executives can't read charts. And that's been a real insight to me and understanding how am I going to communicate and frame things from a data perspective to start to build their confidence with data.
Sarah (27:41)
Yeah, great question.
Fiona (27:44)
Thanks, darls!
All right, I've got a good question here for you from Andy Holt in Australia. So Andy suggested diving into tools and workshops. He wants to know what's your approach to physical tools like Post-its and whiteboards for in-person sessions versus things like Miro or Canva whiteboards for those workshops that are online.
Sarah (28:05)
Yeah, so Post-it Notes great for in person and I love all the energy in the room. You can get people on their feet and moving around. Love a good whiteboard, even better if you can just stick them to the walls, you know, and really go loose there and having the...
the big Jotter pads everywhere and marker pens and lots of different colors and really letting people's, know, creativity flow and people, you know, just the energy of moving Post-it notes around and everything. So I love that. And I love having, you know, I've run big workshops in the past where everyone's got their own kind of set of stuff and they put it all to, you know, put it all together in their groups and then they come up and they present it and you get so much great stuff out of that.
The virtual ones, which we seem to do a lot more of now, I would canvas with saying, just take some time and make sure everyone's comfortable with knowing those tools. You know, we work in Muro, we work in Canva, and we work in Figma as well. And they all have different buttons.
to do different things. So sometimes it's a bit of a brain overload as well. And you've got people on Mac, you've got people on PC. So do take some time and make sure that everyone's comfortable getting around the board, know, putting a post-it note on there and maybe in some tools, the post-it note will actually have their name attached to it. So just make sure that they'll know that if they're trying to be anonymous, they're not going to be in some of the tools. And I quite like, if I've got a feeling and maybe
that's
one of the questions you ask if you're running it in Euro or Canva, is just asking the participants how comfortable they are with those particular tools and maybe sending a link where they can learn a little bit of it before they come along and then just having a quick session. I've been in workshops before where I've attended and it's just been a couple of five minutes at the beginning of put an image here of yourself and your name and check a post-it note just so everyone knows how to.
do it and the people that are struggling can be facilitated through that.
Fiona (30:13)
I'm trying to think if I've got any things to add to that in terms of tools, because I feel like you've covered a lot in there. Making people comfortable is really one of the keys to getting the most out of it. And that can be things like if you're in Miro, bringing in everyone's online, bringing them to your cursor. And so using some of the techniques that are within the tooling.
to help you out, but really just making sure that you're seeing everyone able to contribute and then inviting them. if you're seeing, you know, Chris, Chris, I noticed that you haven't added anything. What's your thoughts on this? And then you might just get them to speak and then you can type it if it's a virtual workshop or even just add something in there. So it's ensuring that you're drawing those voices, those collective voices in.
rather than just the oxygen phase. ⁓
Sarah (31:15)
Yes, and I think talking about running a virtual one as well, you need to set the scene and as much as you can.
possibly can around you need to be in this workshop. You know, we're all busy. We've all got a constant stream of emails or Slack messages or WhatsApp. We need to put that all aside and be very present for this workshop. That's something that's a lot harder to do when you're going virtual.
Fiona (31:44)
I mean, it's really tough to ensure that people are always online and looking so if you're running a virtual workshop I think it's really important cameras are on and setting the tone on that, I understand No one loves seeing their own photo anywhere But it's you know, given that we're not all in the room together today One thing that we can do to feel more connected is have our cameras on So setting that up at the start
And then ensuring that you've got a lot of activities or a lot of things planned. Menti is another tool that's really great for drawing in people's opinions live, doing Q &As in Menti, making sure that someone has somewhere that they can put the questions and then other people can upvote them or downvote them as well if that's appropriate. But making sure that
there's activities that they have to be doing. And then when they're not doing it or they're not participating, call on them. Actually call on them so that you're demonstrating and role modeling that behavior throughout, set it up front. I'm gonna be asking everyone questions today so that, you know, don't try and hide in the corner of your rooms and, you know, and get them the comfort of your home. ⁓ Be careful, because get ready, I will ask questions.
Sarah (32:43)
Hmm.
Fiona (33:04)
and kind of make it fun and lighthearted and everything, but making sure that people have the established boundaries of what the hygiene is for the workshop up front.
Sarah (33:15)
For sure. And I think as well, it's important to have breaks, whether they're mini breaks or big breaks, because our brains cannot sit there for a four hour workshop with no movement, particularly when you're doing it virtually.
Fiona (33:20)
Yeah.
I think even in person as well, I recall a workshop that I facilitated for our team over in Chicago. We were all coming from different, edges of the earth and congregating. And it was actually the first time that we'd got together after COVID. There was so much to talk about because...
The times that we could meet were always bad for somebody around the world, normally, when we're online and meeting. talk about checking out, you know, like people would check out because it wasn't their time of day and so they might be tired, it might be 10 o'clock at night, it might be seven o'clock in the morning that they're online on these workshops or on these team calls. So finally having everyone together in the room meant that they each had an opportunity to present something.
that they were working on that was important for the whole team. But that meant that we had a short period of time. We had a bunch of jet lagged people that were, know, people fighting jet lag as well at the same time. So making sure that people had their time to present, get the questions asked and answered, but then also having that short comfort break in between each session, which would allow people to do a quick reset.
People could stand up during the workshop if they wanted to as well because we were stuck in a room for a couple of days. making sure that there was that time to reset, re-energize, grab a coffee, grab a tea, grab a coke and come back in and get started again.
Sarah (35:03)
Some great tips there and I hope we've answered everything Andy's ever wanted to know about hosting an in-person and virtual workshop.
Okay, so how do you think about structuring a workshop series versus a standalone session? What's something that makes you decide to break them into multiple workshops?
Fiona (35:30)
The first thing that makes me want to break things into multiple workshops is simply being able to get into people's calendars and time. And it's really difficult sometimes to get a whole day when, especially when people aren't data people. So they've got to run the operations of their business or organisation. So trying to get them involved for a whole day doesn't work. And it's actually really tiring for them. And so the question is, are you going to get the best out of them?
each time versus where you get the best out of them if it's an hour or two hours and four hour session. So there's some benefits in splitting it up.
But I also find that when you start thinking about how you're going to break it down into, let's say, four sessions in a series, you have an idea, I'm going to start here, requirements maybe, then go into a bit of a data deep dive, then get into some wire framing and then sort of perhaps doing a second playback as an example. You get into the first session and you realize, huh.
the data discovery is not going to be important the second time around. For whatever reason, like there's something that's come up, you've discovered they've got a great data dictionary, you don't need to go and do that. Well, there's another way that you can actually approach it. So that second workshop is going to end up being just a waste of people's time.
So I think the ability, like you said before, on the fly, but this time you've got a little bit more time to reposition things, is let people know there will be some changes coming through, the reason for the change and the reason why you're shifting things, and then moving through it as well. So making those changes and adapting them. So breaking it down typically for me into multiple workshops really depends on
the people who will be involved in them and also the level of energy that you're going to get.
Sarah (37:42)
And there may be different workshops where you're bringing different people as well. You know, if you do your first workshop and it's very high level and then you decide that your second workshop is going to be very much in the back end of the data.
Fiona (37:45)
Peace.
Sarah (37:56)
For example, there is a whole lot of people that are not gonna wanna be in that conversation and you don't want them to be there either. So I think that's some of the benefit of almost some workshops can have multiple streams to solve multiple aspects of the problem. And I think that's where breaking it up can really help and understanding which part needs to be solved for in which order.
I think some of the times where having multiple workshops over multiple days can be not so good is if you feel like the culture is potentially toxic and the outcome from say the first workshop gets a lot of talk and you're almost pushed into a position where people higher up want to reshape the follow-up workshops based on what
They want not what the workshop has determined is needed.
Fiona (38:53)
You raise a really interesting point there around the underlying goals of what the leadership team are and if it's misaligned with the purpose of the workshop. I've seen things totally derail. How have you approached that in the past?
Sarah (39:19)
It's a really tough one because it's hard, right? You've got execs pushing you in a direction that you know is not beneficial to maybe the wider goals or the workshop goals. And you've got to really pick.
your battles and understand how far you can push. And I think only you will know that on a case by case basis.
Fiona (39:51)
agreed and don't be afraid of just letting go. understanding that you've had the workshop, understanding that you came up with some great outcomes in the workshop, but then for whatever reason, the leadership direction is quite different and moves things quickly behind the scenes with all those closed door conversations and suddenly...
Even though what was practical and agreed upon has now changed for whatever reason, understand that you're not that reason and sometimes you just need to suck it up.
Sarah (40:37)
Agreed.
Fiona (40:37)
Sadly,
sadly, sadly, think you are like I really love your response to that. ⁓ It was a tough question that I asked you that I don't know that I would have been as able to eloquently respond to.
Sarah (40:54)
Thank you. Every now and again I pull it out of the bag,
Fiona (40:58)
Not at all, not at all, all the time.
Sarah (40:59)
you
So this question feed comes from Steve Adams from Viz DJ in the UK. How do you handle participants who've been instructed to attend but clearly don't want to be there? What do you do when you can feel that resistance in the room, especially when your workshop is about change they don't want?
Fiona (41:23)
It's a really tough question, Steve, because a lot of that work, I believe, needs to be done prior to the session and understanding the temperature of the participants who are going to be coming.
and dealing with that before them coming into the room, which I guess can be really tricky if you're a consultant coming in and you're coming through.
So what I would do prior to the workshop is ensure that there was some good top down change management occurring. So you would have the leadership team setting up the reason or giving awareness to people where, why they should be attending, why it's important, you know, and creating that desire and participants.
And from there, it's really important that the individual leaders of those people are also encouraging them as well. So that takes some time and effort on behalf of the facilitator to ensure that they are working in that space with those different leaders and giving them the right talking points that they can ensure that they're hitting the notes for the reasons to attend. But if you're a consultant and you come into a workshop,
And you haven't had that ability to do a lot of the influencing with the leadership team locally and you find yourself with individuals who clearly don't want to be there. Well the first thing that I'm doing in a workshop is some icebreakers. getting people moving around is my favourite, not actually sitting in their seats still. Even if we get them to stand up while they're on camera.
⁓ in the virtual rooms, but making sure that we're getting people sort of moving around. One of my favorites is to do something like called Birds of a Feather, where we're getting people in breakout rooms or in different corners of the room to identify five different things that they all have in common. And what that does is it creates a sense of unity between different group members.
where they're not thinking about the purpose of the workshop, they're thinking about competing with other teams or other groups. And the first team that is able to come back and say, we've done it, we've got it, then you can go through all of the different things and then the winners of the icebreaker. So there's just some human elements to breaking down the psychology and getting people into a state where then you can say, okay, so we've discovered that we have some unique things that are in common with ones.
one another. So we've built on commonality already. And now we're coming into the purpose of the workshop, which is where we're all here to solve X, Y and Z or understand X, Y and Z, whatever the purposes of the workshop. So really at the beginning, you're really trying to set the tone of the energy with things, drawing them into that conversation. you know, Selena,
You're a little bit quiet there, know, is there something that is on your mind? You know, what's top of mind for you about this and trying to bring in so that you can bring them to the point that they understand that they're not there in a confrontational manner, but they're there and they're valued as well. And they've been selected as someone to come in and to participate.
Sarah (44:54)
And so what I'm hearing there is a lot around
the stakeholders talking about it, why it's important to them. think that's great. You're just standing up, giving that kind top down approach, but also building that bottom up and being really personal with the individuals. And I think another point as well is encouraging people to come in and we need your expertise rather than you're just here to fill a position to participate and do this. Really encouraging them. And I think the other piece you called out really well was just understanding
that change is hard. People do resist change. Calling it out, naming it, and having a big poster somewhere. This is going to be hard.
Fiona (45:37)
Yeah, this is different. It's not what we've had before. there's going to be learning, there's going to be mistakes, there's going to be things even that, you know, what easier on the old platform if we're moving platforms from the old platform to the new platform, that's for sure. But really getting an understanding behind the reasoning for the change.
Sarah (45:56)
Yeah. Yeah.
Fiona (46:03)
And even if it's not something that they want to change to, ask them how they would change to it. So, you know, that they're in control. People love habit. People love the know-ins. So asking them how they would move it and getting them into that space where they're contributing to things.
Sarah (46:22)
Yeah,
yeah, because that's what we want, right? We want people to feel comfortable, to contribute what they feel is important, and that's where workshops are great.
Fiona (46:33)
Yeah, so on that note, what are the different techniques that you have for drawing out those contributions from different types of people? know, the quiet ones, the change resistant ones, the people who are just checked out and want to go back to work or back to bed, maybe.
Sarah (46:50)
Yes, I think it's a lot of things that you've already highlighted around engagement. So having that quick fire question maybe, you know, and just drawing everyone back in, like everyone.
Do a love heart if you agree with this or a sad face if you don't. And you can see quickly like how many people in the workshop are actually listening. I think that's a good one. The other one is understanding some people are talkers, other people are typers. You know, just managing that. I feel it's always important to have co-facilitation where you can.
Having someone watching the chat or watching the room while one person's doing the talking and the facilitating out front. There needs to be people helping behind. It's always a tough one when you've got the hippo in the room and they're taking a lot of dominance. And I think sometimes you have to also play the cultural political game, but sometimes it could be as easy as, hey, Brad, we've heard a lot from you today. How about we let someone else step
in for this question and sometimes it does need to be a bit blunt like that and again I find the best workshops are where people have felt a little bit uncomfortable.
Fiona (48:05)
Absolutely, absolutely. Because if we're all in their comfort zone, if we're all in our comfort zone, why haven't we done this before? Or why haven't we solved it before? You know, it means something when things are tough.
Sarah (48:17)
How do you measure whether a workshop was actually successful? Not just whether people felt good, but whether it moved work forward.
Fiona (48:27)
think it can be tricky sometimes. I mean, obviously, the outcomes of the workshop should determine what's coming next. I think you can do the odd post workshop survey and figure out, you know, how people, how engaged people felt, what they think that you could have changed about it. That's always a good one. You what are their suggestions for improving it the next time? It's always a good one to hear how you can keep evolving and getting better at these things. But
Measuring whether you achieved your purpose is really about how you go about solving the problem. for me,
Did you end up with the information that you need to take it to the next level, which is whatever actions are being taken or whatever decisions are being made? Are you feeding the information back to a steerco or the recommendations back to a steerco or are you going and building something? It really depends on what the problem is that you're solving and then how.
that goes through. Could also be that you decide this is not a problem worth solving. And that's also successful, even though that's not moving forward anywhere. That's the end of something. So it really just depends, to quote Andy Cotgreave.
Sarah (49:45)
Yeah, I think for me, it's coming up with some measurable KPIs at the end. What are the next five things that we're gonna do as a result of this workshop and putting almost like timeframes in them and seeing things? And the other one that I really love is what did it uncover that collectively we didn't know beforehand?
Fiona (50:08)
There's even things that we discover about each other during that facilitation. I just want to come back to a point that you were talking about before. I thoroughly love co-facilitating with you. I think that we both take the lead at different times, but there's always things that I learn about.
Sarah (50:19)
⁓
Fiona (50:28)
practices that you do, I find that you're really good at setting those frameworks up, letting the workshop flow. So for instance, ⁓ the old rosebud thorn is one of the things that we like to put in when we're looking at wireframes. And we don't necessarily sit in that and ask people to ⁓ respond to it.
Sarah (50:35)
Letting them go!
Fiona (50:56)
I sit there in the background listening to what they're saying about things and just documenting it so that it's there and available for our reflection afterwards. But it's still there as a framework and it helps me to think about how to best structure what's going on. I think being together and not having to take all of the ownership of the documentation and the writing or asking, you know,
probing questions when people start talking, having someone else be able to jump in on that and without you thinking, where am I taking this next? Or what's the next thing that I need to speak about as the facilitator? Really getting in and helping to flesh out from the participants what's going on.
Sarah (51:42)
And I agree,
I think we spend so much time in each other's pockets. We can almost kind of think where the other person's going next. So we're very lucky and fortunate when we do co-facilitate that we've both got a common goal and we may take a very wonky line to get there, but we both kind of know when to lean into one of our decisions to go take a left turn and almost pull it back when we need to do a right turn as well. So I really agree. Another benefit
in today's society is obviously being able to record and transcribe as well because I think particularly when you've got larger groups you are going to miss little tid bits which are important to circle back on.
Fiona (52:29)
So I talked a bit about Rose Thorn Bud and having that in one of the frameworks that you use.
How do you think that those frameworks actually add value in workshops versus when do you think that they're bit of flourish or theatre?
Sarah (52:47)
Yeah, so historically, when I went through my ⁓ human centered design practitioner and then facilitation is very rigid, right? It's like you should have this up and this is the methodology and this is the steps and you need to really talk about it. And when you're early on in your human centered design, I think that is really key and important. But I would say I've never seen it that rigid outside of a human centered design course.
So what I like to do is have it there, have it in my back pocket. I can have it on the board. But like you said, if we can just ask the question and we feel that everybody is understanding it and we can just run it on the board ourselves, then that works better because introducing...
the technique can take time. People can think it's, this is another human centered design thing. But I think the best facilitators know when to go wide and when to go narrow and just naturally apply the methodology without calling it the methodology, if that makes sense.
Fiona (53:55)
OK, Sarah, last one. What's one thing in a workshop where you've been a participant and not a facilitator that you thought, gee, I need to incorporate this into workshops to make them better?
Sarah (54:11)
So when you started asking that question, I had a completely different answer to when you finish asking that question. Yeah, because at the beginning I was like, what's one thing that's really excited you about a workshop that you've been in? And for me, that's been when it's taken a massive right turn and everyone's gone, yeah, that's like, that's it. That's the gold nugget that we've collectively come up with.
because we've gone wide and we've given ourselves the freedom to think about it. And it's not what any of us were thinking when we walked into this workshop. And now we see a path forward. So those are the ones that give me goosebumps. I'm like, wow, this has been a valuable use of everybody's time. Yeah, yeah. And what's something that I would encourage others or that I've seen that I would like to see others? I think it's got to come back to the candy and the sugar.
Fiona (54:49)
Mmm. Oh, I love-
Yeah, that's awesome.
Have you got a favourite that you bring along?
Sarah (55:11)
you
Ah, see I don't eat a lot of candy or sugar, but for workshops it's like wide open. So I'm like, I want all the colours. I want the Skittles, because it gives me bit of a chew and a bit of crunch. A little bit of chocolate. Yeah, I could go anywhere really, but it's like an open day for me. It's like, yep, as much candy as I need to get me through. Yeah. What about...
Fiona (55:17)
Yeah.
Nice. Good to know. I remember that for next
time when we're slogging through something I'll just throw some cat hair at you. ⁓
Sarah (55:44)
Yeah, just in my mouth, I'll open
wide.
Fiona (55:48)
as
pop rocks. You can hear them in your head.
Sarah (55:53)
Exactly.
So Fi what's something that really excites you about workshops and something that you'd like to take away from other workshops you've seen in the past?
Fiona (56:05)
Hmm. I've two things as well, since you had two, And first thing is...
I really like it when there's other people also coming in to do specific sessions. for instance, if you're running a team workshop and it's your team and you give your senior managers some things that they can go and facilitate throughout the sessions, they're responsible for the design of it. They're responsible for drawing it out and they're also responsible for the facilitation. I think that that really works well because
they're so involved with being successful in what they're doing, they want to give other people the same opportunity to be doing things as well. So I think that can work really well in some instances. And the other thing that I think works really well is having an external speaker come in. So if you're running up and I'm talking about obviously not a one to two hour workshop, I'm talking about if you're running a whole day workshop, whole day.
You want to have some time where you're getting some external expertise coming in and talking about a topic that's adjacent or relevant to the purpose that you're there for and getting people to think a little bit more blue sky rather than here's the problem that we've got right here but thinking about... like if it was...
our voice isn't being heard out in the organisation, how are we going to become better at that? You might have someone who comes in to teach about presentation skills. And so there's a session, there's a bit of activity in that, and it's really helping to elevate the skill set and the knowledge of the participants as well. So they feel like they've not only given during the workshop, but they've also had something that they received.
Sarah (57:41)
Hmm.
Mmm, really like that.
So if you're planning workshops for your team or clients, remember the key things we've covered today, structure with flexibility, preparation that actually sets people up for success, be it the long, what, 50 question questionnaire?
Fiona (58:21)
I'm gonna go and look now and see how long it was.
Sarah (58:23)
Okay. And creating a space for every voice to be heard.
Fiona (58:29)
We know after listening to this full podcast that great workshops don't just happen. They're designed, they're facilitated, and they're followed through with intention. So start with the basics that we've discussed and build from there.
Sarah (58:44)
And remember, if a workshop needs to derail because that's where the real conversation needs to go, it's not a failure. That's being responsive to what your stakeholders actually need. The agenda is your guide, not your prison.
Fiona (58:58)
Are you ready for this? If you enjoyed today's episode, please like, subscribe, and share this with anyone who facilitates workshops or wants to improve how their team collaborates.
Sarah (59:12)
Until next time, stay curious, keep exploring, and thank you for joining us here on UnDUBBED, where we are unscripted, uncensored, and undeniably data.